Across the Spectrum
Submitted by alan on Thu, 08/14/2008 - 02:06.
Strangely Intimidated!
Yes I have been slow to post the first entry on the blog because I have been strangely intimidated by the simple technology. But I got over myself and dived in. So! Let me give an introduction. We are going to be examining a book by Gregory A. Boyd and Paul R. Eddy called Across the Spectrum. It is a book that surveys theological positions that are considered to be within the 'spectrum' of orthodoxy by generally evangelical theologians. So far we have examined 3 major issues, they are;
The Inspiration Debate:
The two schools of thought include the Inerrantist View which claims the Bible to be without error of any kind, and the Infallibilist View, which sees the Bible as Infallible in matters of faith and practice. The Inerrantist View is probably best described by the Chicago Statement on Inerrancy of 1978. This view qualifies inerrancy by the claim that the Bible is inerrant in the original autographs. The major critique of this view is that those autographs are unavailable and cannot therefore undergo the scrutiny of the present copies. Defenders of this view point out that the manuscript evidence for scripture is amazingly consistent and that discrepancies in manuscripts are mostly limited to unessential details. The weakness of this view is that the endless qualifications of what is meant by 'inerrant' seem to weaken the original claim. Thus giving the Bible into the hands of its' worst critics.
The Infallibilist View holds that the scriptures are inspired by God and are completely faithful to the intentions of God for faith and practice. This view admits that there are numerous 'errors' in the details of texts but that these so-called errors do not obscure the meaning or intention of God with regard to our faith. In other words, following the scriptures will not cause us to fall into erroneous behaviors. The advantage of this view is that it is less on the defensive than the Inerrantist View because it simply admits the textual difficulties and does not claim that they need be reconciled to establish the God-given authority of the voice of the text. The weakness is that this view has been open to more liberties on the part of those who want to maintain connection with orthodoxy while deviating from some orthodox positions.
The Providence Debate:
Is God sovereign over all things as in the Calvinist view, or has God limited his own control by granting freedom to his creatures as in the Arminian view? This is an endless intramural debate in the Christian family. Calvinists hold that all things, including the self-determined acts of individuals are ultimately caused by God. For the Calvinist life is planned and orchestrated by God and yet humans are still personally responsible for their choices. A Calvinist will point out for example that the death of Christ was so overseen by God that it could be said to have been done by both the hands of wicked men and the predetermined plan of God. (Acts. 2:23)
The primary objection to this view is that it makes God responsible for evil. Not so, says the Calvinist a doctor may inflict pain but he intends it for healing. In the same way God, who is our father may oversee a painful project in our lives with a redemptive intention. Such as in the life of Joseph, but because God intends it for good and accomplishes his good then he cannot be impugned for temporary or collateral pain. The intention of God being good is determinative in the goodness of an act. Therefore, no one can accuse the Lord of evil.
Furthermore, God's intervention in our salvation is also necessary in this view. The Calvinist believes that because man's will is in bondage to sin therefore he cannot choose God. Thus God must choose those he intends to save while passing over those he has not intended to save. Thus God's providence is all-encompassing. (see Eph. 2) If God does all the work then he gets all the glory. So God's providential care over his elect ones is to his own glory. No one chooses God so no one can take credit or boast before the Lord. His providence oversees all.
The Arminian on the other hand believes that God granted humans self-determining freedom. Thus limiting himself in the process. God does not control the freewill choices of humanity. For this reason Arminians contend, mankind can genuinely love God and can genuinely be responsible for moral failure. If God controlled all human choices then how could anyone be said to genuinely love God. Love requires a choice. Also this view makes mankind, not God to be the author of evil. Calvinist claim that human choice indicts man but not God but that human choice is not self-determined. The Calvinists sees no contradiction in that while the Arminian loudly protests.
For the Arminian, God's desire for all to be saved, (I Tim. 4) is genuine and reflects that all may be saved. Thus human response to God is genuine and not predetermined. Furthermore the Arminian points out that prayer can influence the activity of God in the world. For the Calvinist, prayer is intended to reform and shape the thoughts of people to the will of God.
The Foreknowledge Debate:
This is the most controversial of the debates we have examined thus far. The Classical View of foreknowledge argues that God foreknows all that shall come to pass. In other words his foreknowledge is exhaustive, covering all things. The Open View maintains that God knows all that shall be and all that may be. The crux of this debate centers upon whether or not all future events are predetermined. The Classical View maintains that God knows all that shall come to pass because he has already preordained it to be. The Open View maintains that God has predetermined many things and thus knows them before they happen. However, this view maintains that God has left many things undetermined. In other words, while God knows every contingency, he has not predetermined every outcome. Thus some of the future is not available to be known until it comes to pass. While God knows every possible outcome he has not predetermined every act. God has left many things open to the freewill choices of humans.
Calvinists and Classical theologians have moved on every front to defeat this view and to condemn it as unorthodox. The idea of maintaining that anything is unknown to God is simply unthinkable them. Open Theists have countered that God is magnified by a view that sees him as completely competent to deal with every circumstance and to bring his good will to pass in the midst of competing wills. The Open Theists maintains that God limits his own knowledge by granting to his creatures genuine choice. They maintain that by definition an unpredetermined act cannot be known until it occurs. To the Classical theologian this makes wreckage of providence and leaves an uncertain future. It is seen as reducing God to being subject to the whims of man. Thus man is elevated above God. Open Theists counter that the accusation is simply untrue because God is able by his power to both accomplish everything his will intends and to countermand the free will acts of all rebels.
The Open Theist maintains that this view helps answer a great many Biblical difficulties. It removes direct responsibility for evil from God and places it squarely on humanity, it accounts for the natural readings of many texts where God is seen to be interacting with people in genuine relational ways, and it answers the question of the power and value of prayer. The Calvinists maintains that this view presents God as nothing more than a god or that it certainly lessens his glory and power. They furthermore state that it deviates from the entire history of Christianity in how God's omnipotence is understood.
Your interactions with one another are welcomed...and while I will not respond to every post, I will check in to see what the questions and discussion looks like. This is a public forum and I reserve the right to remove any post that I wish. This will mainly apply to posts that are ill-mannered, coarse, or unnecessarily combative. This is a discussion forum and civility and charity are expected. Otherwise, have fun.
Pastor alan
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Great class!
Submitted by sam on Wed, 08/20/2008 - 05:54.This is by far one of the best and most enjoyable classes that I have been involved in. Even though sometimes I find myself at the end of a chapter session wondering what I believe/ think; the book, discussion, and Pastor Alan's teaching are making me think outside of my "little box" that I put God in.
I love the view that puts God and me into a relationship together...to where my life matters...my prayer matters...We matter to God! Ya ya, I know Alan....you're His favorite!
Question:
"If God controlled all human choices then how could anyone be said to genuinely love God. Love requires a choice. Also this view makes mankind, not God to be the author of evil."
Alan, doesn't it talk in the end of Revelation about the locust hoard being of evil and that it had a human face?
I can't remember the context of how this was written...? Was it saying that God was bringing the wrath or that of humans by their choice? Enlighten me! :-)
This is addictive!
Sam
Great Comments
Submitted by alan on Sat, 08/23/2008 - 01:48.Thanks everyone.
I will have to get back to some of this later but it is good to see the number of comments.
As to the question of life after death. We will take up that question at the end when we study hell. The question that is valid to ask is whether the soul is immortal. Everyone states that it is but does the Bible claim that? When we study hell we will look at texts for and against the issue.
I plan to post very soon on a couple of other subjects
LIfe after death
Submitted by GreatWillmiester on Sun, 08/24/2008 - 04:41.Hum... I suppose we should ask the two Lazarus' mentioned in the Gospels that questions. You know, the one that was Jesus' friend and the one that died and went to hell and wanted Abraham to send word to his brothers.
getting a message to someone in hell
Submitted by jwstrachan2000 on Sun, 08/24/2008 - 17:51.Senyor WillyMeister,
Once again you've surprised me. I didn't know (or had forgotten) that there were TWO people called Lazarus in the Bible.
I want to read about that second Lazarus, the one who "died and went to hell..." Do you recall which book of the Bible tells about him?
Lazarus
Submitted by GreatWillmiester on Tue, 08/26/2008 - 06:57.Luke 16:19-
Actually Lazarus is a begger that sat outside the rich mans house, both died and had a conversation in hell...
Oh, and its MR
Submitted by GreatWillmiester on Tue, 08/26/2008 - 07:05.Oh, and its MR GreatWillymister... B^D
Just a note from the Great-Willmiester
Submitted by GreatWillmiester on Sun, 09/07/2008 - 04:18.Hey folks, I just moved into a new apartment...and I don't have internet. Right now I am standing in the soundbooth during Saturday worship practice.
So if you don't hear from me for a while, its not that I have lost interest or I am mad...its just that I can't.
Foreknowledge
Submitted by GreatWillmiester on Thu, 08/21/2008 - 08:19.The idea of multiple realities each branching off of every decision ever made by any man, resulting in an infinite number of universes; has been a staple of SciFi for years now. While I don't believe that there in fact all these other universes existing side by side, the idea that the future changes with every decision made, being made and going to be made does make sense to me. I believe that God can see all of those infinite possibilities and has a plan for each and every one, that leads back to his predetermined goal. As I explained to Alan after this class... Its like God starts us out in LA and tells us to get to New York City. This can be anything, our entire lifespan, our goal for the next year, the next ten years or just today. We can take any number of different routes out of LA, we can head straight east, we can head up into Canada or head south along the Mexican boarder, we can take interstates, highways, state roads and dirt roads. We make the decisions that get us there. God is sitting there somewhere with an atlas with EVERY road in exsistance, GPS and a CB radio. He knows where we are, what roads are in front of us, and can contact not only us...but the various State Police, towing companies, etc. If he wants our route to pass through Denver, he has the state police close off all the roads except the ones that will lead us through Denver, if we get ourselves lost or stuck he sends out AAA. He has predestined us to arrive in NY, he may specify certain roads we take to get there, but the individual choices are ours to make. Does this make God any less than he is...no! As Alan said, I think it makes him a WHOLE lot bigger that we ever thought or could imagine.
Image of God
Submitted by GreatWillmiester on Thu, 08/21/2008 - 08:29.There was some comment about life and whether or not it continued after death for everyone. I think that we need to make sure we are all using the same definition of life. What are we considering to be life?
Example, as a divorced guy with no friends, all I do is eat, work and sleep (ok a little more than that), if you asked me I would tell you " I don't have a life" Does this mean I am not alive? I submit for discussion that there are more than one meaning to life and to swap them indiscriminately causes most of the problem in this overall question. If by life we mean, exsistance and or awareness then yes; everyone lives forever either in Heaven or Hell. Those in Hell, don't have much of a life in the second sense of which I will call, purpose or possibly contentment. When we say " I love my life!", we don't mean that we are enjoying our hearts pumping, our blood flowing, the neurons racing through our brains. We mean that we find contentment with the way our life is at that time, we have a purpose that drives us.
This confusion is caused by using the wrong definition at the wrong time. The soul(spirit...whatever) never dies. It goes on and on. Whether we have contentment and purpose after physical death or just an eternity of torment, based on our decisions in our physical life, determines where we have Eternal Life by the second definition.
Did Creation break the laws of Physics?
Submitted by GreatWillmiester on Thu, 08/21/2008 - 08:36.There was a comment made that Young Earth (which is obviously right B^D ) breaks one of Newtons laws, while Old Earth breaks another. I don't remember which broke which, and it doesn't matter for this discussion.
I submit that until God created the universe, the laws didn't even exist. I plan to create a new board game next month, a really good one, it will be very popular and sell very well...anyway... what you just did 5 minutes ago (whatever it was) breaks one of my rules for my game ( I haven't invented the rules yet either).
That obviously isn't true. So the fact that creating something from nothing doesn't break the rule, because the rule doesn't exist until after the something was created. So if Old Earth breaks one rule, which was in exsistance, and Young Earth would have broken a rule, except the rule didn't exist when it was broken...sounds like young earth wins on just a logical point....
Here is an interesting
Submitted by corridore on Thu, 08/21/2008 - 22:42.Here is an interesting addition to your question is the genesis of the laws and their validity to creation and the history of the universe. There was a time (basically yesterday by an "Old Earth" time line) that human's didn't have these laws of physics. Or some might say, "know of them." On an equal note everyone believed the earth was flat and that it was the center of the universe. However, we now know that to be false based on observation and continued revelation of the world in which we live.
How we as a people can claim these laws to be all governing and all encompassing is arrogant at best. Sure they fit the bill now and haven't yet been proven wrong so far, but since the Earth was "Known" to be flat and proven wrong, it is likely that laws we have that are "Known" will also be proven wrong in some fashion.
Atheist scientists claim that whatever they don't understand is simply that which has not yet been revealed "by science" and their error is simply in their ignorance. However they turn around and scorn the believer for claiming that which has not been revealed by God cannot be understood. It simply shows that they don't have a problem with ignorance or understanding, but simply with God. In my opinion it is not science that is in the way, it is man and the evil in man that continues to try and put himself in a position where God is not needed (a place of no accountability and pride). It is all in the corner in which you come from. If you come at science and universal understanding from a presupposition that God doesn't exist, you will associate your findings with that world view. If you do the same from a standpoint that God created it all your observations may be the same as the atheistic view but will be represented in a much different light. In that sense science will not reveal God, because God doesn't exist within the realm or "laws" in which science operates.
I hope smarter people then I will jump in here as this is a discussion I find interesting and am very open to correction, growth and enlightenment.
-corrridore
Clarification please
Submitted by GreatWillmiester on Sun, 08/24/2008 - 04:31."Here is an interesting addition to your question is the genesis of the laws and their validity to creation and the history of the universe."
I am afraid that I don't understand this sentence. Can you clarify it?
As to your other points. Back WHEN, yes everyone knew that the Earth was flat, but no-one had actually seen it. There were no photos or even paintings of it, no direct witnesses.
This is basically what caused science to come into being I would think.
The need to prove and verify things. That is why somethings (like Evolution) are such a contention. Everyone knows that man evolved from monkeys...but no one has ever actually watched a monkey turn into a man...(few men down at the local bar have turned into monkeys though). If they would stick to it as a Theory and not a Fact, it wouldn't be as big a deal.
Ah, but that is my point
Submitted by corridore on Thu, 08/28/2008 - 22:15.I will have to admit that my first sentence was poorly worded. I was simply meaning to start of my post by saying, "Here are some things to think about".
As for my comparison to how humanity 'knew' the earth was flat until we observed that it wasn't, your comment further explains that point.
You stated:
"As to your other points. Back WHEN, yes everyone knew that the Earth was flat, but no-one had actually seen it. There were no photos or even paintings of it, no direct witnesses."
Based on our tools and knowledge of the time everything we could observe and understand pointed to a flat Earth. Right now our tools and knowledge have shown us that it is indeed not flat and we have observed many more things through history leading to new revelation about how God has made things work. However, we are still only observing from our current vantage point. My comment about arrogance simply means that claiming "Yes, this is absolute" presumes that we will never have a higher or bigger vantage point. How can we state that when history and the scientific method itself has proven that we will eventually realize that everything we 'know' to be true is not at all correct.
Don't get me wrong I am not denouncing the beauty of Mathematics, Physics and the rest of the sciences. Frankly the observed but not understood relationship between the weak, strong, electromagnetic and gravitational forces fascinates me. Above all I do not believe scientists are arrogant in their attempts to try and understand it. I simply wish to point out that we have no idea the mysteries of the Universe. Should we keep looking? Of course we should. However, lets be careful about what we say is absolute because we really don't know that it is absolute until we know all there is to know. Is that possible? Not unless you are God. How is that for some eye scratching material? :)
Corridore
Arrogant or Ambitious?
Submitted by jwstrachan2000 on Sun, 08/24/2008 - 17:17.It troubles me that my esteemed "Corridore" might be dismayed by science's claims when she says "How we as a people can claim these laws to be all governing and all encompassing is arrogant at best." (see HERE IS AN INTERESTING).
As a scientist, let me assure you that my notion of "success" in my work is when I succeed in disproving something. My JOB, by definition, is to decimate the ranks of things considered to be "true".
When I look for laws that govern all, I'm being ambitious, not arrogant. It is with reluctance that I would "claim" any law to be true. When Einstein showed us that Newton's laws were not quite correct, all us scientists were elated!
Hum...
Submitted by corridore on Fri, 08/29/2008 - 04:57.I don't claim that scientists or the pursuit of truth is arrogant. I think that to some extent it is our mandate to study and learn the ways of God and his creation. My point was that holding the claim of absolute truth in something without having been able to study and prove wrong all other possibilities is arrogant. I understand that the "truths" we hold as laws now have so far not been dis-proven. Key word being "so far."
The point in my original posting was that utilizing laws we "right now" hold to be "true" to explain and restrict what actually happened at creation that may have been outside of these laws could be a falacy. Can I prove that... no... can you prove me wrong? Has everything we see now always been that way or does it change? 'So far through observation and evidence we can say things that are, have always been that way because they haven't changed since we started watching. We cannot prove however that they always have behaved this way. I believe claiming they have is where the arrogance is. I do not think you make these claims. Some do. That was the extent to my "What do you think about this" comment.
I will try and be more clear in the future :)
-corridore
Science
Submitted by GreatWillmiester on Fri, 08/22/2008 - 07:37.Science was originally the study of how God made things. This did lead to a few mistakes (earth centered universe and such), but as it moved away from God, it became a study of Why God doesn't exist. All of the laws (actual laws and not theorys) are based on observation and being able to duplicate in a controlled environment. I am not a mathematician, but I understand that math does support many of the findings. So I dont have much of a problem with the physics laws, the biological ones, are not as easy to pin down and cannot really be mathmatically proven of course.
Yes, I suppose it is possible that we could be proven wildly wrong in some of the laws, that would be interesting. ( Personally I hate the Speed of Light, I would really like to visit the stars one day (soon as I get my glorified body I am out of here headed to Alpha Centari)).
Did Creation break the laws of Physics?
Submitted by jwstrachan2000 on Fri, 08/22/2008 - 15:32.I like your appetite for ideas and your enthusiasm of expression, GreatWillyMeister!
Young earth versus Old earth & Newton's laws; great possibilities here! You've definitely got my attention! The crux of your comments, if I understood you is:
>> IF the Bible’s account of creation story is in contradiction to Newton’s laws, it's not a problem. Even a genuine contradiction would not render the story false because God preceeded his Creation and its functional laws. <<
Well I hope you’re happy. The question you thrown at us somehow done crept up and bit me and it’s been drivin’ me nuts for four hours. I’ve been thinking so hard my eyeballs itch, and the pitiful words that I’ve scratched out below are all I could manage in the way of subduing this nasty theological itch of which you are responsible:
1) Newton’s laws aren’t the problem. He was just peering a bit more intently at God and His Creation than the most of us. (Newton’s laws and the best work of maturing sciences in general are astoundingly good vectors that appear to point in the direction of Truth. Science as a human process is one of the marvels of God’s creation.)
2) The history of science and human knowledge in general, will demonstrate over the long haul, that our earthly wisdom (yes, part of our God-sparked creativity) has always been moving man, by fits and starts with its twists and turns, toward the Truth.
3) What we’re looking for in our study of creation is for a sensible alignment between what we reasonably can know about our world and universe and what we can reasonably conclude is knowledge from the Bible. And as we look for that resolution, we preserve a humble awareness of our inherent limitation to know while always stoking a ferocious insistence on knowing more.
John W Strachan
Sorry about your eyeballs
Submitted by GreatWillmiester on Sun, 08/24/2008 - 04:23....hope your didn't scratch them to badly....
You did get the gist of my thought there. It was another chicken and egg thing.
I love science and am a dilettante of science myself. I agree that scientist should have a skeptical mind. Ideally they would have no preconceptions at all when they investigate things, that of course is not going to happen, so they should attempt to have as few preconceptions as possible. Early scientists started with the idea that God existed and looked for His laws in nature. These days Scientists (ok, not all of them, but the most vocal) assume that God does not exist and look for proof to support that.
Both, in my opinion, are wrong.
My eyeballs are still itchy
Submitted by jwstrachan2000 on Sun, 08/24/2008 - 16:56.Thanks, WillyMeister, my eyeballs are feeling better. But now my hairline is itching.
When I pair up two of your comments (copied below) I have to say, 'hey man, you can't have it both ways!'
>>1: "I agree that scientist should have a skeptical mind." and
>> 2: "These days Scientists (ok, not all of them, but the most vocal) assume that God does not exist and look for proof to support that."
In the scientific approach, If something is true, it has to stand the test of skepticism. That itself is part of the methodology. A simplified description of the method:
a) I postulate a truth (hypothesis).
b) I run experiments in an attempt to DISPROVE ( ! ) my hypothesis, and share my results & conclusions as a progress report.
c) Others do the same.
d) Over time we end up with a general conclusion, and if the hypothesis "sticks" (no one is able to disprove it, try as they might) then we say its "the truth".
It's also interesting that the Bible, in certain places, encourages us to test God's word!
Have you tried a dandreff shampoo?
Submitted by GreatWillmiester on Tue, 08/26/2008 - 06:51.Might help that ichy hairline...
I think that scientists should be skeptical, but if they are starting from the point that God does not exist, then just how skeptical are they.
When I was learning the scientific method, step two read "...run experiments in an attempt to PROVE my hypothesis" I would also accept "PROVE or DISPROVE". To assume that your hypothesis is fact just because you cannot find evidence against it doesn't make it a fact. I am reminded of an episode on Sesame Street. Ernie is walking around with a banana in his ear, Burt finally gets him to admit that it is to keep the alligators away. And in fact there were no alligators in the apartment, so it must be a fact that keeping a banana in your ear keeps alligators away because Burt couldn't prove him wrong. Ok, that is definitely an exaggeration, but still. Things cannot be facts just because they cannot be dis-proved, only if they are proved.
Ah Logic
Submitted by corridore on Thu, 08/28/2008 - 22:19.I love logical fallacies in arguments. Makes for fun debating.
I'm going to go get a banana now because I really don't like alligators.
-C
Science: Don't pick on my scientists!
Submitted by jwstrachan2000 on Fri, 08/22/2008 - 16:24.Stop picking on MY scientists! Pick on Alan, instead; he’s much worse.
I’m serious about scientists. It is really NOT a bad thing for a scientist refuse to acknowledge the truths taken from the Bible. An important and even essential part of his job is to stick to his guns, to adhere to his chosen method of inquiry. Nor is it a defect that he look to find ways to apply his method to debunk the truths of the likes of you and me.
Why not say that scientists as a whole are just reasonable persons who INSIST, for the sake of thoroughness and validity, on limiting their pronouncements about truth to that which they have studied with the application of the scientific method?
Remember, scientist are just poor blokes trying to do good and honest work. They don’t need all your ornery mean comments. But Alan does. And picking on him is a lot more fun!